Roger Federer’s Inside-Out Forehand

federer has a beautiful slice backhand which bounces very low . when he hits a topspin backhand there is a great difference in the height of the bounce . varying the height of the bounce frequently confuses his opponent as when the ball bounces low he will have to bend his knees more to pick the ball up and when it bounces high he dosent have to bend down much . the opponent will have to change his amount of knee bend for every shot . he will start getting tired to doing this in 4 to5 shots and will end up giving a weak return to federers backhand which he can convert to a forehand . this gives federer more chances of hitting an in side out forehand .

Good discussion. I think the change in the spin and height of the ball add to the variety and present still more opportunities for a short or weak return that Fed can run around for his inside out forehand.

To upset a player's rhythm, and force an easy ball to put away with the inside out forehand, off of the opponents response to the slice or topspin backhand

He will get better oppertunity to step in the court. More time.

to beat his weak backhand

his back hand is not weak it as farst as his forehand

You can not imagine how much has helped me your videos,thank you very much from Spain!.Excelent work!.I have learn a lot from your videos.Thank you my friend FYB!God bless you.

excellent ovservation

Thanks for that FYB.

I think another point to make is that because Federer is able to manoeuver the ball not only side to side but up and down, he is then able to hit the ball 'behind' his opponent, making his opponent struggle to hit the returning shot on his back foot. Opponent is then off-balance, which means that his opponent will return a mediocre shot and Federer blasts it off onto the sides.

Also Federer knows that if he employs a topspin/slice strategy it gives him more room to move to the net and close the point out. Moving his opponent around the court and then using a deep slice backhand, Fed keeps his opponent far back in the court and hitting a defensive, high-bouncing 'safety' shot off which Federer can 9 times out of 10 (it it's only a standard safety shot) either hit a winner or a solid approach shot down the line and then come in to net and finish the point off. Federer is a master of constructing points and this is one of the point building tactics he uses, especially against taller, less agile players like Robin Soderling who have to bend down and scoop his slice back, leaving themselves largely out of position and giving Fed much more court to hit to.

R there more of these quizzes on your site?
could u make a specific link for the tackticks?

i t was very useful and i am going to watch all your videos

This is very useful for me ,and I like Your explonation and the form You done it

We're on this problem -- hope to have it resolved soon.

I keep getting this message whenever I try to view the answer to the quiz.

"System Error Encountered!
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could not find valid list with the name Website+Subscribers"

Does anyone know how to fix this?

test, sorry

hi,
at first i love your homepage.Im from Germany and, although i play tennis for around 10 years or even longer, i learned many things i didn't know.
But i cannot open other videos, because i always get this kind of error:

"System Error Encountered!

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could not find valid list with the name Website+Subscribers "

how can i fix it?

test

I think it's to keep his opponent off balance. Federer loves to do this because it keeps his opponent off balance and this helps him set up for a wicked forehand.

This is good
just keep going

to draw them in with the slice and push them back with top spin.

federer hits slice backhand because the ball travels slower in the air after the slice and it gives enough time to federer to move across the ball when it is returned by his opponent and hit inside out forehand. he hits topspin backhand to mix it up so that his game doesn't become predictable.

the fact that federer varies his shots with both slice and topspin pushes his opponent back behind the baseline or either further into the court. this naturally creates bigger angles for the suisse as opposesed to if the opponent was on the baseline normally.

just great!
nice explanation!

second video please
Thanks

Great videos! Keep them coming! Every time you add new content, I'm amazed by the quality.

Do you realize that you are depicting Federer as a lefty, like yourself? you need to turn the racquet the other way to show an inside out. Otherwise, great video!

Hey Julia. Viewers have been confused by these icons so from now on I will clarify how they work in each video. The circle represents the player's body and the stick coming out of it represents the racket. Thus, everything was oriented properly in the video. Hope that makes sense.

the slice shot on the back of his opponent makes the opponent just able to return the ball, not strong enough, giving Fed the time to make the inside out forehand.

Good one, because by making the opponent having to adjust the depth of their shots he forces a depth error on their return, so Fed can run around and also step into his own shot to make it more forcing. He must have read books about naval battles and how gunners have to continually adjust range as they approach the enemy ship!

The other reasons I thought were 1) because if his opponent starts playing back slice to counteract Fed's slice, that may also take a player that plays mostly flat/topspin (say, someone who plays DHBH) out of their comfort zone which may produce a return which is looser lengthwise; and 2) an opponent's sliced backhand will be a slower shot that will give Fed more time to run around.

Basically the "inside out shot " or "inside in shot " it as you say a more powerful shot than the backhand. It can be a slice or a topspin depending whether he wants to keep the ball low or kick up. It is important that the shot be of such quality to put the opponent in a defensive position since "running around the backhand" opens up alot of the court and this makes him vulnerable for a down the line shot to the opposite side of the court or a return shot directly at the body. By varing the depth and the angle of the shot can keep his opponent guessing!!

Hi Will. Great job !

By mixing sliced BH and topspin BH, Federer gains several things :
1. He keeps the other player gambling if he will have to play a sliced or topspin ball, wondering if he can position himself for an I/O FH first or not. The I/O FH becomes more risky on a sliced BH : the ball bounces lower, which is tough especially for players with todays grips.
2. On a sliced BH, the response is somewhat weaker, allowing Fed to prepare for the I/O FH. More, this is a tougher shot for "pure" two handers
3. On a sliced BH, Fed prevents for down the line FH and too angled I/O FH (low bounce), keeping a ball reasonably easy for him.
4. He angles more his topspin BH, opening the court for the next shot.

I agree,

By alternating topspin with slice backhands, Federer changes the pace of the ball and because he is the first mover (his one handed backhand allows him to disguise the shot he will be playing) he can anticipate. If you have to come in to the court and play a ball that hardly bounced you probably will slice the ball back, centrality if you play a double handed backhand. So it's an good strategy against hard hitting baseline players.

It's harder for Roger to use this tactic against Nadal because he's left handed and because it's very difficult to hit a good slice backhand at shoulder hight (Nadal's topspin forehand).

Well you answered this question already in one of your earlier videos (not a strategy quiz one). When Federer slices from his backhand side (typically when he's on the ad side) most players will just slice back to where Federer hit his backhand slice. And this opens up the Federer inside-out forehand. Occasionally, you may get a player like Nadal or Nadal himself that hits the slice somewhere else, but typically the backhand slice is hard to make a move on or do anything with.

I have been a high school tennis coach for the past 17 years and will be celebrating birthday # 64 this summer. Our teams have been quite successful during this time and our 95 match winning streak just ended. I have been so impressed by your site and presentation of various tennis concepts. You really do a great job and it is true that you can teach an old dog new tricks ! One question please.......when Federer elects to go down the line and not hit and inside/out forehand cross court during a point, where should the opponent try to hit his next shot during this pattern.....high and deep, crosscourt ?? Thanks.

Will, could you send me an e-mail responding to the question in my comment? Thanks.

Thanks Will.
federer is fantastic ,and this year ,he deserve to win ,
in every match make some incredible shots,

I'm agree with Michael Stewart !
Nice quiz !
Keep going !

Really enjoyed your comments. I remain a little stuck on the definitions. Plz correct me if wrong. I thought an inside ball was an incoming ball which did not cross the player's body. Roger scoots around his backhand to create an inside situation. He hits the ball back from where it came which is to the RH players backhand which is an inside out shot. If Roger had his the ball parallel with the singles' and centre lines that would be an inside straight ball. If Roger hit the ball to the open forehand side of the right handed player, that would be an inside change-of-direction or inside change shot.

Hey Walter. The down the line forehand Federer hits when he runs around his backhand is an inside-in forehand. I forgot to make this point in the video but I put in a text overlay to clarify it. When Federer sends the ball back crosscourt, that's an inside-out forehand.

Some really good comments but many of us have to read through your definitions. My assumption is, by definition, an incoming ball does not cross a player's body. The inside out shot is a shot which goes back from where is came. Roger scoots around his backhand to hit a forehand cross court to a RH player's backhand is an indie out shot.
When Roger scoots around his backhand creating the inside shot, and hits a ball parallel with the singles' and centre lines, that would be considered an inside straight ball. When Roger changes the direction of the incoming ball and hits a ball to the open court forehand side of the RH player that would be considered an inside change of direction shot or indie change. And going along with you, you can add a little more top and create a greater angle as a type of inside out shot.

info is great. Just wish we didn't have to see the back of this kid's head all the day. look at the camera, do not turn your back. he is young, he will get better.

playing the slice cross court to his opponents backhand, federer can then reasonable assume that he will get a return cross court hit with not much pace because its difficult to generate pace off a slice. This will allow federer to run around his backhand to hit a forehand. Also, mixing in topspin shots with slice shots will generally throw off an opponents rhythm and make it difficult to hit agressive shots. This would also allow federer to run around the backhand.

cant wait till the next quiz!! Thanks Will

I think the slice and top spin shot just make the his opponent confused. As we know, it is different to return a slice or a top spin shot, if he mixs it together, the opponent gets confused and return some low quality shots, then Fed has time to switch to his forehand and hit to the place whatever he wants.

Hello,
well I think by alternating slice backhand and topspin backhand, Roger changes rythmn and make his opponent hit a slower/safer backhand that let him time enough to run around his backhand to finally hit his inside-out forehand...Is that your thinking?
Actually I hadn't thought about that, but your explanations gave me this idea.
JF

incredible brain storming. Keep it up

great video. i was wondering would a drop shot down the line be a good way to counter this? like during fed’s alternation of shots suprise him with a slice backhand drop shot DTL preferably off his slice backhand which will naturally add spin from his shot making it tricky and harder to reach? tough shot to pull off i know, but is that strategy any good??

Thanks.

Think I'm going to agree with Michael Stewart above. Alternating between top spin and slice changes bounce but most importantly changes the pace of the ball and disrupts the rhythm of his opponent so that he himself controls the rhythm and when to pull the trigger (the forehand).

Alternating between the slice and topspin backhand changes both tempo and bounce thereby producing more opportunities for a weak reply which allows Fed the time to pounce on the forehand and take charge of the point.

hi Will (again) does that slice/topspin stradegy work on any court? grass(ofcourse), clay, hard and carpet?

I agree. The slice to a righty's backhand will cause them to put in a slightly less forceful, higher spinning shot. Most peoples backhand has less spin. Plus federer knows how to use the angled slice to open up the court. The topspin is mixed in so it isn't so predictable. Federer's topspin slice isn't that great. That's what I think anyway. And that's why Nadal's game messes Fed up. Because the lower slice makes nadal crank more spin.

I don't have much to say...


WWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWW !!! I hadn't think about it !!! FYB, you are incredible ...


Tks.

great video. i was wondering would a drop shot down the line be a good way to counter this? like during fed's alternation of shots suprise him with a slice backhand drop shot DTL preferably off his slice backhand which will naturally add spin from his shot making it tricky and harder to reach? tough shot to pull off i know, but is that strategy any good??

Thanks.

the rackets/paddles never confuse me - seems like a logical way to illustrate it (if it was ping-pong then i could understand teh confusion).
anyway - great insight into federer's backhand technique - are there any players other than nadal who can play it effectively (e.g. djokovic who has a strong backhand).
anything planned for some andrew murray tips/strategies? he's playing very effectively at the moment.

Federer is using the two different Backhands to vary the space of his opponents' responses (ie what they receive and what they hit back) and the time between each stroke he hits. For example, the slice gives him more time to move the way he wants allowing him with a better opportunity to dictate the point in the manner he choses,

I think the reason why Federer likes to use the slice before doing the inside out is because it buys him some time and also keeps his opponent off-balance.

Great video!

I think that combination of slice and topspin backhand will keep the opponent off balance and probable cause a short ball from him that can be ripped.....

Will, why dont you just draw a mini tennis player on the circle or print one out and pste it on the circle so that is makes it more clear to people what the racquet and body is.

Hey Mike. We'll do something to clarify this cuz it's clearly a problem.

Thanks for this great video Will !!! i'd also like to share my ideas on the slice-topspin backhand combination Federer uses to set up an inside-out forehand

I think the reason Federer uses a backhand slice and topspin combo in order to set up his inside-out forehand is because using slices and topspins give different kinds of pace and rhythms on the ball ...

From my personal experience when I face different styles of balls e.g. slices & topspins, I kinda hesitate and just try to return the ball (not trying to hit winners) as deep as possible (but speed drops) so I think this also applies to players on tour (even though they have much better anticipation on the ball than I do).

So when the players return the balls Federer hits, the balls aren't so aggressive and this gives Federer the opportunity to run around the ball and hit an inside-out-forehand.

Big thanks to you Will and also FYB. This is such a great site with more than I can say and continuous improvement. Love this site!!! ^-^

Will, you are right on with this. Could you do something like this with a leftie. Diagnose a Nadal shot for us. I play leftie.

Got to say Will, bit of a goof with the placement of the racket.

You seemed to have it set for you (a lefty).

I knew what you meant but still a bit off putting!!

Again, read above post. I'll clarify the magnets in the next video.

next time you show a strategy video on blackboard, please do not use a left handed
version...i know you are left handed, but most of us are right handed....and it is confusing when you show this for a lefty..

thanks

Read my post above... the magnets are a little confusing. I am actually showing this for a righty.

I agree with BigForehandMan analysis.
Thanks for sharing this tips with us!

Two reasons, first the change of pace of the ball will affect the timing of his opponent and the low bounce of the slice will cause the opponent to hit up on the ball, rather than down and give Fed the time he needs to move around the shot.

You have great advice and make it VERY simple to understand. Thanks so much. However, you have got to change up that hairdo. You are too young to have a old bankers hairdo.

Haircut tomorrow!

Hi,

The reason he gets more opportunities to hit inside out forehand is because:

His opponents are unable to get into a good rhythm on their backhand side because of the mixture of slice and topspin balls they have to hit. This lack of rhythm makes them predisposed to hit weaker shots. When his opponent hits a weaker shot Roger has time to run around his backhand and hit an inside- out forehand.

I guess what he made different from other players before him was his use and placement of the slice backhand. Whilst other players slice the ball deep and angled in the opponent's left side of court, waiting for the opponent to hit the ball instead of slicing it back, and eventually making a mistake or a short ball or alike, Federer seldom targets the opponent's backhand with his slice. If he did that he would get an awfull lot of sliced balls that he could'nt run around of and attack. To do that he needs floaters, or high bouncing balls. So, instead he places the sliced backhand not deep in the court but in no man´s land and in the middle/just to the left, of his opponent's court daring his opponent to hit a forehand,which more often tahn not will be weak and very high over the net, and either the opponent advances to the net, not in his own terms, but Federer's, or he retreats back leaving him in a very vulnerable position to Federer's impressive and versatile insideout forehand to any of the spots that you've described.

i think the variance in pace and spin will force the opponent to play a bit more defensively instead of being able to adjust to the shots and pound them deep into the court. this will allow for federer to easily hit an inside out forehand alot easier than most situations

Hi,
The answer lies in the video where you say that Fed and Venus will be winning the Wimbledon on men's, women's repectively categories.
The anser is that because the ball comes off the ground very low when Fed hits the slice, will force the oponent to hit in a small area around where Fed is placed (i.e. return the ball to him) as the oponent doesn't have much of a choice in such a case.
Thus, Fed has plenty of time to go around the ball and hit a forehand instead of a backhand.
I hope I got it right.

Cheers,
Dya

brilliant abselutely brilliant...ohh boy i suck at backhand slicing thanks though

Let me clarify the players on the board. Those magnets are not a tennis racket. The circle represents the player's BODY. The stick coming out of the circle represents the racket.

I can understand where some of the confusion is coming from... we've had similar comments on past strategy videos. Hope this clears things up.

Maybe you can put a little tiny racquet head at the end of the part that represents the arm/racquet. I think new people are going to continue to be confused.

You're confusing the issue, because in manipulating the little paddles on your board, you're talking about a backhand, but the paddle is in a forehand position to us, the viewers. And when you mention running around a backhand to hit a forehand, you're placing the little paddle in a backhand orientation.

You might be thinking of YOUR position at the near end of the court, but you are trying to illustrate what Fed will be doing at the OTHER end.

Hi Will. I think that by using slice-topsin combination Federer is trying to slow down just a little bit the opponent return and using this to position himself for the inside out forehand. I saw often that when the opponent is attacking with backhand, Federer response is a slice backhand, when the opponent is slicing the ball, he uses topsin. This is not 100 % in all situation, but from varying the speed of the return, he has time to position for the inside out forehand.
He is trying not to keep the game constant and by not being predictable, the opponent has less time to prepare his shot which is meaning the opponent can not hit an approach shot. And this gives him time to set up for his great and wonderful by the way inside out forehand. What do you think ?

During slice/topspin exchange Fed's opponents are always guessing, and eventually reply with a shot that gives Fed time and space to fire an inside-out forehand and combined with some less than perfect positioning that produces a point for Fed.

slice to his backhand and when he slices back, run around back hand and hit inside/out forehand.

short angled backhands. short angled backhands draw the opponent wide off the court such that the opponent will need to return a sharper crosscourt backhand in order to stay in the rally. going down the line after being drawn wide is too risky to attempt as the margin for error for down the line is much lower than for crosscourts, thus the opponent needs to return crosscourt after being drawn wide. and if the opponent hits a crosscourt which angle is not sharp enough federer will be able to run to his forehand side and do a inside out.

Federer often pressures his opponents by taking balls earlier on the bounce each time they're hit to him. He doesn't do this with his slice backhand, however, because it is not an aggressive or pressuring shot. So, when he does decide to go inside-out, he catches his opponent off guard, out of position and out of rhythm with a suddenly paced and flatter forehand shot. His alternation between slice and topspin backhands keeps his opponents guessing, and he uses them to open up the court for his inside-out forehand. I've seen instances where he places the inside-out shot just far enough out of his opponent's reach for a winner. Have you ever seen his inside-out backhand?

Can't think of a situation when he's done that... I'm sure one exists but Federer tries to hit a forehand pretty much whenever he can.

There should be a way to EASILY opt out of the Johnson & Johnson ad at the end....that blows.

I think everyone is hitting on the answer, which is consists of multiple parts. First, Federer's topspin and depth will push his opponent back behind the baseline. The second part is mixing in the slice - Federer's slice stays very low, which will force the opponent to either with more topspin and not as aggressively, or with slice himself, which as most people know, is a slower ball. Both shots give Federer more time to run around his backhand, and particularly, the less aggressive higher bouncing topspin shot from the opponent will allow Federer to flatten out his inside out forehand.

You say that Fed moves the opponent forward and back on the court. Why dont opponents hit an offensive shot when Fed puts in a short slice? Being in closer should open up angles and reduce the time Fed has to respond right?

Federer's slice stays extremely low, so it's difficult to create angles when you have to lift the ball over the net. Hitting an angle shortens the court so you have less margin for error -- less distance to work with. Someone like Nadal can do this because he hits with so much topspin and is left handed. A righty, however, has to hit a backhand and typically pros have less racket-head speed off their backhand wing so it's hard to create sufficient topspin consistently.

I love the new format to post the question and answer in the 2nd video. What I love to see a true serve and volley progression instead of just serves and net play. Also strategy planning before each point. Also, love to see more doubles match play analysis what works and what is ill advised.

Quick Question:
If Fed is hitting a combo of slice and Topspin, is he more likely to get a short ball after a slice or a topspin backhand? Or does it matter?

Opponents tend to hit Fed's slice shots into the middle, thereby allowing fed to run around the return.

I am not certain what I think of the ideas that the slice shot is difficult to hit offensively.
Nadal sure does.

Nadal is left handed and hits with waaaaaaaaaay more topspin than any other pro. He's hitting a forehand instead of a backhand and all that spin allows him to lift the ball over the net (Federer's slice stays really low) but still have it drop safely into the court, even when he's hitting a sharp angle. No other player can handle Federer's slice backhand like Nadal can.

first and foremost I love this format of questions and answers, it gets you thinking like a tennis pro and not so much a social tennis player. my answer would be if roger is hitting a slice backhand to his opponent, the slice will skid out wide thus opening the court so he can hit to the open court. the topspin backhand will push his opponent back into the court so essentially he has is opponent in the corner of the court where he is able to run around his backhand and take the forehand down the line. it is like in checkers when you pin your opponent in the corner and he has no where to go and can't hurt you.

I agree with Val.

Very interesting

The fact that he alternates between topspin and slice backhands, keeps his opponent from getting settled into a rythm. Especially when moving from slice to top, the change in speed will provide him with a weaker return (since his opponent) is running to set up. This is where he gets a bigger time gap to run around and use his forehand...

By hitting top spin to his opponent, Federer will have more time to run around his backhand

Agree with all the above concerning how Federer prevents the opponent from getting grooved, forcing side-to-side and forward/back movement. Counter strategy to Federer could be to force him hit a backhand - ie. hit the ball early and angled enough to his backhand making it more difficult to run around his backhand. Djokovic is the player who does it the best and almost beat him doing this in the Madrid Open 09'.

Another reason that Federer is able to hit so many inside out forehands is because the slice is generally and much slower moving ball. So once he hits the slice, that enables him to float around to his FH and take charge of the point.

Great explanation. Now, my players will have to work hard to be able to hit spins deeply even better to create these inside out opportunities. If they hit a short ball, they could be in trouble. Thanks. Your insight into different parts of the game is one of the best I have seen.

Change of pace buys Federer time. Placement of Federer's slice backhand - lack of a sharp angle, low, and deep - doesn't allow his opponents to increase the angle on their reply making it easier for Federer to run around and hit a forehand. Federer's court speed and great placement on the run is a huge deterrent for his opponents to try to change the direction of the ball and go to the open court hoping to get a winner, so his opponents tend to stay in a crosscourt game and that also makes it easier for Federer to run around his backhand.

Federer hits very radical underspin which forces his opponent to lift the ball dramatically or if the ball bounces very low hit a defensive shot. Either way Roger is more likely to be able to run around the next ball for his inside out forehand. Having to respond to both top and underspin further complicates the issue for his opponent and makes an offensive response even more difficult.

As with some of the comments here, I too think that the slice-topspin combination prevents Roger's opponents to get a proper rhythm and as a result forces them to return a short or floater ball that allows Roger to run around it to hit his favourite forehand... just my 2 cents =)

I think Federer uses the backhand slice to set up an inside-out forehand because of a couple of different reasons. Slice will make the ball bounce lower forcing the opponent to hit up on the ball more if the opponent chooses to hit it back with a conventional topspin stroke. This should then help the ball sit up more in Federer's strike zone for the forehand. Alternatively, varying slice and topspin will keep the opponent guessing and/or pinned in the backhand corner. Once Fed then gets a short ball or floater he can rip it with the forehand in either direction.

I think Federer's slice backhand forces his opponents, everyone except Nadal, to hit more towards the center of the court because the ball stays so low and is hard to attack. For this reason, Fed can run around the middle ball and hit an offensive forehand!

Istn´t the direction of your racket wrong?
If you talk about a backhand your miniracket should show in the other direction because Rederer istn´t a leftie.
And in case of taking about the forehand the top of the racket should point in the other direction as shown in your video.

I had the same thought about the direction of the racquet. Like you I am left handed, and Roger is right handed. I couldn't get a natural read of what you meant by the position you kept putting Roger's racquet in.

By the way, awesome site. It makes me want to come take privates from you. (Especially because I love being coached by lefties!)

You would be right, but the circle represents the players body and the bar coming out of it represents the racket. :) Yeah it's a bit confusing at first glance.

Agreed with Val- thanks for these videos they are fun!

Hi Will, congrats on the site and videos! They are excellent, keep it up!
I think the combination will eventually force the opponent to hit a softer/floater slice backhand, thus giving federer more time to run around it and hit the forehand.
I'll try it this weekend and post back the results on Monday :-)
Hernan

Changing between the slice and forehand will keep the opponent off balance and possibly allow for a short ball that can be ripped.

i find when I play, the more the slice backhands I give the opponent, the more slice returns I get. In the end. the slice gives me time to run around it.
Although I'm sure a pro slice backhand doesn't have much bounce/height to put it away, I think Fed is capable :)
That's my best answer.
Just to mention, this site is great - and you broke the Nadal out of Wimbledon news for me on your twitter feed.

Hi,
I think the reason the combination of slice and topspin allows for an inside out forehand is that the opponent will have to keep adjusting to the differing bounces and spins from the respective balls. Having to adjust to the difference will slow his reaction and he wont be able to rip the ball, and federer will have a short ball to put away. Is that right?
Thanks for these videos, they're a lot of fun and interesting to know.
Val