John McEnroe’s Forehand vs. The Modern Forehand

love the 3 day email course on the forehand. just really excellent. hope you follow with similar courses on the backhand and serve.

because he doesn't rise the racquet above the head, there is no continuous swing path. He stops the movement in the way back and starts all over again to the contact point.

What's missing: a continuous swing path.

I have recently come back to the sport after many years off. I use the "old school" forehand (Continental grip, closed stance, straight backswing and stroke, little topspin). Is there a good reason for me to switch to the "modern forehand"? I am now a recreational player and consistency is my highest concern. Of course I would like to hit like Nadal, but it is far more important for me to keep the ball on the court (and not in the net).

Hi Tommy. You'll ultimately achieve the most consistency by mastering the 5 fundamentals we lay out in the forehand section. Initially you'll likely see a drop off as you get used to the new technique.

Stuff like the straight take back + little topspin inhibit consistency so I'd recommend you work them out of your game.

Do you think that's attributed to the fact that he has more of a continental grip?

That certainly influences the rest of his technique -- grip affects the swing plane, contact point, and follow through, for example.

Hey everyone. Sorry for the delay in my response -- just got back from 4 days in Florida (grandmother's 90th birthday!).

Johnny Mac doesn't have a continuous swing path -- the racket comes back, stops, and changes direction. In other words, no loop. Many people observed this fact, either by explicitly pointing out "fundamental no. 5" or by commenting on his racket take back (fundamental no. 2), which directly impacts the former. You could also throw in the "C" from the swing to contact (fundamental no. 3) as well.

The other "macro" stuff -- the fundamentals -- are there, even if there are some differences in the way Mac does them vs. "modern" pros.

A bunch of other great observations about Mac's forehand -- more linear swing path (no WW), less body rotation during the follow through, etc. RE: the limited body rotation, keep in mind that pros stop rotating at contact when they hit a reverse forehand. See Rafa (second video, forehand at 1 minute -- compare it with the forehands where he finishes across his body) --

http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/pro-stroke-libr...

1. Mac is hitting with an open stance (modern), showing a weight transfer forward from the back foot
2. The motion is the old school straight back - straight forward with a firm wrist but no wrist layback, making a contact plan at shoulder level, not in front of him
3. Follow through is over the shoulder due to the lack of WW

I think that the main differences with modern FH are:
1. No torso rotation involving big muscles (abs, spinal). Power comes only from legs and arm
2. No pronation involving forearm muscles. Arm power comes only from shoulder muscles

1. He's hitting with an open stance, with hips parallel to the baseline and feet at the same level. The back foot pushes forward (see 2nd FH) showing more or less weight transfer for added power.
2. The preparation is the old school straight back, but there is a more or less full shoulder turn. The left hand helps this shoulder rotation at the beginning.
3. There is no pronation. The arm moves as a unit. Power comes only from shoulder muscles. This is probably due to the straight back - straight forward motion
4. The wrist is firm, during the entire shot
5. While there is no WW, the follow through is above the right shoulder.

I see two big differences with the modern FH:
- First: there is no torso rotation during the shot to add more power to it. He finishes the shot parallel to the line, hips AND shoulder. The power comes only from legs and arm. Torso rotation involves abs and spinal muscles.
- Second: There is no wrist layback. As the wrist is firm, contact is made in shoulder plan, not in front of him, what is quite unusual nowadays

These differences are independant of the continental grip

He does a pivot+ shoulder turn, but holding the racket in only one hand. Also, he takes his racket back further with a shoulder turn. He actually hits it, so I guess he must have a swing to contact, although it seems shorter because his continental grip makes him hit the ball somewhat behind him. He also has a follow true, although again not a really long one (he isn't hitting with an awful lot of pace I guess). What is missing is a continuous swinging path. At the end of racket-back there is a definite pause, when he waits for the ball to come to him.

Obviously, it is the pivot and shoulder turn. All the other elements are there although they are brief, probably due to age and flexibility. However, the video was taken after 40+, very retired. I am wonder if his swing changes with age...

If you look at where is hips are you will find that the right hip faces away from the net . The last shot presented has both hips facing away from the net . He may not fully turn his shoulders away from the net I but think his hips still say "old school"

old joe

Swing through contact. john seems to push through contact.
John like to volley his ground strokes.
Good on ya john

Why would we want to ignore the Continental Grip? Becker also played with one grip for both sides.

Pivot and shoulder turn is missing. All other four elements are included.

I think he´s missing the "racket back".
He doesn't keeps his right arm about shoulder high and parallel with the baseline, and he always move the racket back under his shoulder level.

Continuous swing path.

No pivot and shoulder turn.

Guess not should have watched the video first

He has a closed stance instead of open

he lacks the continuous swing path and puts more stress on the elbow.

McEnroe has a straight back racket head takeback while the modern extreme Western forehand grippers (with the hitting hand UNDER the racquet grip) have a big racket loop on their backswings, often high above their heads. For example, look at Rafa Nadal's (also Left handed) forehand backswing loop. These modern forehanders love to stroke with the "windshield wiper" ball contact. The "windshield wiper" swipes across the surface of the ball from very low to very high, imparting loads of topspin. This method requires lots of practice to get the timing correct. Incidentally, our task as forehanders is to balance the amount of LIFT of the ball by topspin with the DRIVING of the ball toward opponent (for good depth and penetration). McEnroe's stance is also more CLOSED than the wide open stances (both feet parallel to the baseline at ball contact) of modern "windshield wipers".

He leans back in the shot. That ought to be bad for balance.

So, are you going to tell him Will?

I think the only fundamental he has is the "racket back". All the other fundamentals are missing or incomplete. Neither has he a continuous swing path, nor a follow through. The shoulder turn might be OK.

I've seen him play in his prime and his strokes if I remember correctly were a little different. I think he's tightened up and shortened his swing a little in this video. Back in his day, there was not the power game that we see today. It was more of a finesse and strategy game and his style lent itself to a greater degree of flexibility in terms of shot variation that would allow for disguise. And he was a master of disguise in term of surprising his opponents with an change of pace or direction of the ball. Yes, he's not using the modern forehand, no looping back swing and no windshield wiper follow through but his stroke was right for his time.

McEnroe does not get the acceleration that we see in modern swings. It is a little surprising that he didn't have trouble with tennis elbow, especially with the continental grip on the low to high backhand. He was saved by "feel" and keeping the arm relaxed to avoid stress. The biggest difference I see in his forehand is that he relies mainly on his timing and speed from the other players ball to get power. He relies more on "bracing" or stabilizing his body on contact to help transfer power into the ball (not so much just the arm and wrist which he keeps relaxed).
A modern swing torques, braces, accelerates, and transfers weight in a way that builds and releases much more power into the ball than McEnroe can do on his forehand.
His backhand is pretty modern other than the grip.

Most noticeable point to me, and this is probably because of his continental grip, is how he lifts his head on contact 0.40 on the video, and not the classic head down after the shot a la Federer!

that's easy: the Continuous Swing Path is missing

The only element in the five-part series on FYB that McEnroe actually does not do is the pivot and shoulder turn.

He does all the other four, just differently: he does take his racket back (and in fact his arm comes out parallel to the baseline), he does swing to contact (doh!), his swing path is continuous, and he does follow through.

The way he executes all of these steps is old school, but none are actually missing.

Several here have criticized McEnroe for not having a windshield wiper forehand. I do not see that as a valid criticism. There are at least four distinctly different forehands, and top players today use them all as the situation demands: windshield wiper, basic follow-through over shoulder, flat, and reverse or "helicopter".

There are videos on FYB of Federer in which he does not use the ww, and as I said earlier, Nadal heavily favors the reverse forehand (finishing over his head).

no. 1 his shoulder turns almost at the same time with the racket back.

N° 2 - racket back. I found this pretty obvious, so I was surprised to see so many differring answers.

No. 5 - Continuous Swing Path

Just released the newsletter so I'll offer up my thoughts in a few.

He does not rely much on ground strokes to win a point. His ground strokes are just there so he can get to the net as soon as possible. I cannot see him beat somebody like lendl or for that matter most of the top guys at that time from the back court. But the things he does well are movement in the court (he is so quick and fast) , well placed serve that is difficult to read because of his style of serving, and volleying which has such feel to it. He is like a shark in water at the net.

To answer ur question, I think it is continious swing path that he lacks. There seems to be a break because of the way he takes the racquet back.

To me, his follow through looks a bit awkward. His weight appears to be on his back foot rather than leaning into the shot (this looks very obvious with the side on view in the third shot).

He doesn't really rotate much, and I wonder how he keeps the ball in so consistently without much topspin. But technically, I think he has lots of quirks on all of his shots that are unique to his talent. That's one reason tennis is interesting: There are a variety of styles and any of them can be effective. One fundamental on McEnroe's forehand is that he's ready for each shot well in advance. I think regardless of technique, that's the key.

He moves off the wrong leg first after doing his split and during his shoulder turn, more obvious on the first shot. IN HIS PIVOT AND SHOULDER TURN HE SHOULD BE STEPPING OUT ON HIS LEFT FOOT BUT HE STEPS WITH HIS RIGHT

He's missing the loop on the racket take back.

Racquet Takeback

Bob is spot on here, his straight take back means he must pause his swing at the back and start a new swing going forward. This combined with his lack of body rotation to contact means he doesn't maximise his acceleration thus the lack of follow thru he has. So the answer is he doesn't have a continuous swing.

He does cross over when he hits his forehands, and he doesn't keep his foot firmly planted on the ground.

he moves his hand to hit the ball before turning his shoulders

Noticed the lack of forward movement with the front foot, besides the obvious swing path. He seems to favour hitting off the back foot without planting the front foot, which is contrary to how we hit now. But .... that's what makes it a great game where one player can beat another and another can't even if they're more technically correct. Its who hits the last ball IN that matters.

As everyone points out, he doesn't have a windshield wiper forehand, and he doesn't have a C-shaped swing path (e.g. like Roddick). While this means he hits a flatter forehand than the typical modern forehand (no surprise), he gets the pace by meeting the ball early. In the 1st forehand, he's clearly returning serve and stepping into a kick serve that's dropping while it's in the baseline. In the 2nd and 3rd ones, he's trying to meet the ball on the rise, or at the peak of its bounce. Continental grip or not, stepping into the ball and meeting it early is important for developing a killer forehand.

He has all the fundamentals. The completely straight arm during the swing is the biggest difference. I doubt that Mac would have able to be a #1 player and as successful as he is with such an obvious fundamental flaw.

A number of people referenced the lack of a windshield wiper swing, that is due to his usage of the continental grip. The WW motion is based on a much more vertical swing path, with a more topspin emphasis. The fundamentals still remain in a windshield wiper swing, just more emphasis on a more vertical swing (still a good amount of extension though, which Mac shows on his swing).

Straight arm forehand is not a flaw. Nadal, Verdasco, and also Federer are among some folks using this technique.
Me also use straight arm forehand with a modified eastern grip and have experienced extra top spin with the ball.

Didn't mean to say that the straight arm was a flaw. Meant if he was missing any of Will's Fundamentals that he would not have been succesful a player as he is. The straight arm is just a consequence of his instruction/mechanics he learned for his continental forehand, and by no means a flaw.

His non-hitting arm just hangs there.

If you have to ignore his use of a Continental grip as specified by the terms of the challenge, then you really can't answer the question.

Using the Continental grip means he can not employ the modern loop take back and the subsequent hip and shoulder rotation kinetic chain.

John McEnroe is almost all arm in his swing, which is not something we see much these days.

Most people are unaware of how important the grip is in influencing the style of shot, for example people who use a full western grip will employ a full open stance for the majority of their forehands, as the grip affects the entire swing.

I guess these are not the answers you were looking for Will. :o

Definitely the lack of the loop due to the low back swing. I guess that's kinda "old school". That's the way I learned it back in the old days long before there was FYB to show me the light!

While Johnny Mac was/is one of the greats of all times who was always exciting & entertaining to watch, and now we get to enjoy his quick wit from the booth, he is probably the pro I would be least likely to style my game after. His whole game is pretty unique I think. Must have driven his opponents completely nuts back in the day.

The fact his raquet head possition might seem awkard its cause the grip hes using, u cant use a continental and expect to prepare as a semi western. Now, as i said on Facebook, i choose the uncontinuous swing path, his boddy rotation ends early, so he doesnt "guide" the ball out of his strings on the follow through. I dont know if i phrased that correctly xD.

i think he's missing shoulders turn

Onething I notice most modern forehand when they start taking their racket back, racket head pointing upward. Mc pointing downward. I don't know if that answers your question.

Doesn't rotate his body back towards the net fully? he seems to have a low take back as well.

PS: the fact that he does not set his wrist means also that it is not as firm, and you can see it give on ball contact.

Also, the straight-back takeback means the racket has to stop at the back of the swing before starting forward. This takes more energy and interferes with timing. The modern high takeback and "C" swing to contact is a continuous loop that allows the player to accelerate into the shot.

Setting the wrist on the forward component of the swing (and using a semi-western or western grip) practically forces a player to rotate into the ball and take it out in front.

Now do I get my coaching license?

I agree with much of what is said above: not much of a consistent pivot and shoulder turn (so he seems to have to add a stutter step to make up for it); his racket take-back is not the modern loop that starts high and makes a "C"-shaped swing to contact; not much body rotation; he does not set his wrist during the swing to contact (which diminishes body rotation).

The fact that he does not do a windshield wiper, however, is not a problem. Not even Roger does that every time. Nadal hardly ever does it (because he almost always does the "helicopter" or "reverse" forehand).

He doesn't have a continuous swing path?

One rule he doesn't violate is hitting the ball in the dead center of the strings every time, which if us amateurs could do, we would use whatever kind of crazy-a$$ grip you told us to.

Haha. Very true -- natural talent sometimes outweighs / overcomes technical limitations.

Not much of a pivot turn. But mostly he breaks the swing, separates his hands and then waits with the racquet back. That's a FYB no no for sure.

The loop!

It seems to me his follow through is very restricted. There's not a lot of shoulder turn going on. There's no windshield wiper finish.

Also, the smoothness of his stroke seems, at least in slow motion, to be a little less than it might be. It kinda goes back and then goes forward but not in such a continuous loop like modern pros.